In this episode of the She Finds Joy podcast, Kim has the distinct pleasure of talking with Nancy Jane Smith. Nancy is a Licensed Professional Counselor with thirteen years in private practice, and has spent an impressive 20-plus years working as a counselor and coach. She has written three books on living happier, most notably The Happier Approach: Be Kind to Yourself, Feel Happier and Still Accomplish Your Goals. Nancy is also a certified Myers-Briggs®, Strong Career Assessments®, and Daring Way™ Facilitator.
In this episode, Nancy explains the term “self-loyalty.” In her work, she finds that loyalty is one of her clients’ highest core values. “We know how to be loyal to our mothers, fathers, spouses, children, friends, work, organizations, etc. We can give loyalty to other people, but we struggle to give it to ourselves.”
Nancy breaks down this term and helps us understand how to practice more self-compassion while giving us strategies for dealing with our inner critic so we can begin to choose self-loyalty.
Tune in to hear Nancy share:
- How self-love and self-loyalty go hand-in-hand.
- Why the root of our problems always come back to self-loyalty.
- Why self-compassion is difficult for us.
- Strategies to change our inner critic voice.
- How to not turn your back on yourself.
“Self loyalty is not turning your back on yourself.”
—Nancy Jane Smith
Kim Strobel is Chief Happiness Officer at Kim Strobel Live Events and Retreats. She is a teacher, consultant, motivational speaker, happiness coach, and a mission-minded person whose passion is helping others overcome their fears and discover their joy!
Kim Strobel 00:09
Welcome, everyone to today’s show I have the pleasure of having Nancy Jane Smith. She has a master’s degree in higher education and in community counseling from the University of Dayton. She is a licensed professional counselor with 13 years in private practice, and has spent 20 plus years working as a counselor coach. She has written three books on living happier, most notably, the happier approach, be kind to yourself, feel happier and still accomplish your goals. A certified Myers Briggs strong career assessments and she is a daring way facilitator facilitator which I love, because I’m all about Brittany Brown. So, welcome to the show, Nancy.
Thanks for having me. I’m super excited for this conversation.
Kim Strobel 01:12
You are welcome. You know, I just have to go ahead because we always have like the formal intro and then we get to the really good stuff. And so Nancy and I had a pre meeting last week and she here’s what she did you all she blew my mind, because she is a counselor. But I have to tell all of my listeners this because sometimes I think that we are so close minded in, in what we can do and how we can show up and serve in the world.
And, and so, you know, when most of us think of a counselor, we think, oh, Nancy has an office and people come sit in front of her and, you know, this is a traditional counseling format. But last week, you actually said that no, your practice is completely flipped that your form of counseling is actual you have to To pay you for voxer support. And so for people listening who don’t know what boxer is I love boxer. It’s an app, where basically I click on and record my voice. So if I want to, you know, send it to I don’t want to send a text to my friend Vicki because I have a lot to say I simply hold down that little record button on the app. And then I can tell Vicki, everything that I want to say she can listen to it on her end. And then she can respond back with a voice message as well. And so I’m a big boxer person, because I don’t always like to take the time to like, type everything out. And so when you were giving me this new model of how you support your clients, it just looks like to me it kind of, I guess I feel like women in general limit themselves so much of the time like, oh, that would never work. We could never do that. And so I want you to talk us through that process a little bit just so we can get a good understanding of your career and how you show up for women. Ah, yes.
Nancy Jane Smith 03:00
I totally agree with you that idea. And I find it happened to myself all the time that we limit ourselves. Like, we might have an idea and then we talk ourselves out of it. But the voxer thing came into being because I was finding that and, and I go to a therapist regularly myself and, and I would, and clients would say to me, when they come into my office, I just have so much anxiety about coming in here today, or I was debating canceling, or, you know, or everything’s fine. I don’t have anything I really want to talk about. And I was relating to, I felt that way too with my own therapist. It’s sometimes And meanwhile, I had done this presentation for a group of realtors, and they were saying how they use this app boxer all the time. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that would be a great way to be able to catch my clients during the day and not have to have the set time that we were meeting because the other thing I was finding was there wasn’t a lot of consistency. In the work that we were doing, so they would come in, they’d have a problem, we would be talking about that problem. But then later on, the next time they came in, we were under another problem. And with voxer, it can be I can consistently draw the theme throughout all the voxer messages, even though a lot of times when they’re boxing me there is a problem or a concern or something’s up and that’s why they’re getting in touch. But voxer I think is so powerful for that reason that I can draw the theme and we can consistently be working on something even though it doesn’t appear that way. And secondly, because I catch people, they can just wake up in the morning and they might be feeling anxious until they press the button and they start talking. And that’s such a great time to kind of do a download. I I say to my clients, the beauty is in the ramble. And the more you can ramble To me, the more I can, we can pull stuff out because it’s when we’re so guarded, that we don’t get to the heart of the matter.
Kim Strobel 04:58
Yeah, and I love that I of course, I have a counselor who’s been in my life for 20 years, my sweet Charlie. And what I like about it is sometimes like, by the time I have to wait for my session, I’m like, okay, so why did I book this session? And what was I so torn up about, you know? And so like, one of the things my husband and I really do is we work on creating an exceptional marriage. But truth be told, Kim is the extreme extrovert processor. And Scott is a total introvert who doesn’t really like to talk about his feelings, who doesn’t want to dive deep on stuff. And so we had a marriage breakdown a couple of weeks ago, and I was like, Well, I’m not putting up with this bullshit. So I’m gonna call Charlie and figure out what to do. So you know, I had my Charlie session yesterday, but then I was kind of like trying to remember what the resistance was between me and Scott. I was trying to rehash it, but it happened two weeks ago, and I was able to do so. But I could see like how nice it is. If you can catch your clients, right? When they’re In the middle of the chaos, or the stress or the anxiety or the fear or the limiting belief, and then you get to strategically coach them from that spot. Mm hmm.
Yeah, that’s Yeah. And then the other piece, too, is I would leave a therapist session and I would be like, Oh my gosh, that was such a great aha moment. Like, I would feel super inspired by what what happens. And then I would come home and I would try to talk about it with my husband, and it would get lost, like I would lose the AHA and so to to be able then at that point, to reach back out to the therapist to be like, now
Kim Strobel 06:33
what were we
talking about? That was so amazing, like, why was that such an aha, yes, you know, continues that thread so I think to both points. It’s a it’s a powerful it’s a powerful model. I you know, I love I will never go back to the other way.
Since since figuring this out.
Kim Strobel 06:53
Yeah. And I just want to clarify for our listeners because like it took me a while to wrap my head around it. Basically from She is a counselor slash slash coach who doesn’t meet clients face to face, she simply offers them voxer access so that they can reach out to her. And then she can strategically coach them back through voxer. And I guess I wanted Mike like, we’re not going to talk. That’s not the point of my interview with you, we’re going to get into like, way more fascinating things like self compassion and self love and self loyalty. But the reason I wanted to bring this to my listeners, Nancy is because so many times women do not believe in their ability to take a dream that they have, and not make it match what the world or society or someone else tells them that it should, but instead to match it with what feels right to who they are as a person and how they want to show up in the world. And I feel like that’s what you did with your business.
Yeah, and I You know, just to segue into what we were going to be talking about, if for me that happened, I was able to do that. More. So after I started developing self loyalty,
Kim Strobel 08:10
so after I started getting clear on, what is it that I want to do in the world? How is it that I want to be helping people? And how can I do more of that? And, and, and stop, you know, even if you’re not an entrepreneur or you know, any, in this industry? There are, we always go to the experts, we always go outside of ourselves, What are they doing? What are they doing? Let me see what they’re doing. Even if we have an idea, we still will go out into the world to see what what other people are doing. And instead of combining what they’re doing with what we’re doing, we will shut down our own idea and defer to their idea. And so no new ideas get started. Exactly, exactly. And I’m going to drop all of Nancy’s like contact info if some of you are thinking, Hey, Kim, I know I need this lady’s name. Name, I need a voxer. Counselor, we will drop that in. But I can’t wait to dive into this topic. So you brought up the term self loyalty. And one of the things that you know, I talked so much about, you know, I call it self love, you call it self loyalty. And I love that term. And I want to know where it comes from. But I have this inner belief that every issue that we have in our life, whether it’s our inability to create an exercise routine, our inability to attract a partner who treats us well, our inability to chase after our dream, our inability to eat healthy, like I feel like every issue a person can have career health, relationships, anything. It all has to do with it goes back to your self love issues. So I want to know what you think of that. And then I also want to know why you Call it self loyalty.
Yeah, amen. I totally agree with you. I mean, I’m just over here nodding my head all over the place. Yeah, I totally agree that it all starts with self love. And the reason I started using the phrase self loyalty is because two reasons. One is, I have my clients fill out a values exercise, so they can name their top five values. And for a majority of my clients loyalty is a top five value, they really value being loyal to other people. And they will go to the ends of the earth for other people, but they turn their backs on themselves all the time. So there was no self loyalty, there was loyalty to other people. And so I grabbed a hold of that because they know what loyalty means. Like they have that definition really well. It’s just flipping it around to turn it on themselves. And then the second reason is I the term self love is Just so used so often, like, it’s just this it’s become a generic term of self love, we need to have self love. And I didn’t. I struggle personally with how do I love myself, I don’t really get it, I don’t understand how that’s gonna work. And so you’ll hear him a therapist saying I don’t understand the concept of self love, but but it would really it brought up a lot of stuff for me, especially around that, like I’m a therapist, and I understand how to do self love and but I could get the concept of self loyalty. So and I think they’re the same it’s just wording. It’s
Kim Strobel 11:37
but I know what yeah, I want you to define for us, Nancy, what is what is self loyalty to you? What do you what is that and give us not just the definition of what you you think it is, but examples of that.
I think self loyalty itself what it is, is, you know, is befriending yourself. It is not turning your back on yourself. It is when When a decision comes down the pike and you have to decide, you know, tonight I’m, I got to make dinner I got to get the kids organized for you know, we got to figure out schooling. I don’t know we have all these things that we’re working on right now with the COVID stuff. And so it’s it’s what do I need? I need to make a healthy dinner. Not just because someone out there told me a healthy dinner matters, but because I know I feel better when I eat these certain things. And so I’m going to make sure that the meal has these certain things. Okay, well, I’m out of time. I don’t have time to make a meal that has these certain things. I’m such a loser. I said I committed to the eating healthy, and now I can’t eat healthy, what’s my problem? So that it’s, again, not turning your back on yourself not not being like you’re such a loser. It is turning and saying, okay, given the time issues we have, what can I cook for dinner? It’s going to be pizza tonight. That’s what we got. We got pizza, I’m going to get a good salad. So at least I get some veggies, and I’m gonna let it go. I’m not going to be hammering myself and beating myself up for the fact that I didn’t I didn’t get it right. I’m gonna own in self loyalty I’m going to own when I make a mistake. And I’m going to say I messed up there. And then I’m going to figure out how I could do it differently next time, and I’m going to let it go, I’m not going to hammer myself for the fact that I made a mistake, I’m going to be able to discern between when I’ve done something wrong, and when I’m just beating myself up for the sake of beating myself up, and I’m going to own the difference. So I think self loyalty is a mix of kindness and wisdom, that we can be kind to ourselves and then we can discern, where do I need to go next, in a wise way that may not be always perfection, it may not be always the ideal end game, but it’s enough that I don’t have to be hammering myself all the time.
Kim Strobel 13:50
I love that, you know, I worked with a coaching client one time and she told me that she so she her kids were out of the house and You know, they were grown and gone. And she said, Kim, I can’t find any time for myself everyday, I can’t do it. I have no time for myself. She started to tell me and she gave me a list of 10 committees that she serves on. She’s the Bible Study Group Leader, she’s the Red Cross, whatever. And so to me, again, this issue was that she has, for one thing, she’s out hustling for her worthiness, as Bernie brown would say, yes. And she certainly doesn’t feel like she’s a good enough person if she gets rid of some of these commitments so that she can give that time to herself. Yes, yeah, that’s a self loyalty issue or self love issue. That’s what we’re talking about. You know, and I have this kind of motto that every time you’re a yes to something that you don’t want to do. You’re also inadvertently a no to something you do want to do. So do we all say yes to shit we don’t want to do sometimes? Of course we do. Right? But we have some people who are Yes. shitters all of the time, right? They’re saying yes. All the time to shit they don’t want to do. Yes. Right.
Yeah. And I think because something that drives me crazy about the self help industry and personal development industry is we make everything seem like it’s an absolute. So we
say set boundaries, speak your needs. And we do that as if poof, I can just suddenly I’m suddenly going to be, I’m suddenly going to become someone that can say no to something. When I’ve been constantly saying yes to things. And we forget the concept of baby steps that this stuff practicing self loyalty and learning how to show up for yourself in a kind way is, is totally counter to the programming that we have internally in society. And so we need to be kind to ourselves in this process of figuring out What does self love and self loyalty look like? So so that idea that exercise of every time I say yes to something I don’t want to do. I’m saying no to something I do want to do. Yeah, let’s start paying attention to what that feels like when I say no to something I want to do. Yeah, that’s the piece. We block over. We go into trouble. Dooley. Yeah, no, correct. I can
Kim Strobel 16:21
help people all the time. When you start doing it. It’s not going to feel good at first. Right? But like, that’s how we grow. We have to be willing to get uncomfortable until we create a new social script inside of us that says Actually, this is now this No, is now I’m a super proud of that. No, because that means that I value myself enough to know that I don’t have to do that.
Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a client you know, recently who, who’s who had conversation with her boss and she said no to something like he asked her to do something and she said no, and she was super celebrating it with me. It was this whole big deal. And then she comes back This weekend, she’s like, I had another conversation with him. And based on our first conversation, he negotiated with me, what if we did these things? You know, what if we took off these things and added these things, would you be willing to do this next task? And she said, and I said, Yes. And I was, and she’s like, and she was worried I was going to be mad at her, like I would ever be mad at someone. But I was mad at her for not holding the boundary. But I said, No, you were loyal to yourself. You negotiated with him. And because you originally said no, he came back to you know, he was willing to negotiate it, which we don’t even think of that part of the process. You know, yeah,
Kim Strobel 17:39
we’re just ready to beat ourselves up because we didn’t do it perfectly. Exactly. Yes,
exactly. And it’s so much more nuanced than that.
Kim Strobel 17:47
So can you get give me examples because I really want our audience to understand what kind of issues come to fruition because of a lack of Self loyalty, or self love, like when I don’t have a reservoir of self love that I am nurturing inside of myself. How does my inability to do that wreaks havoc in my life? What are some examples?
Well, I think it wreaks havoc in our life in that a lot of times we’re not living a life that we want to be living, we’re doing everything for everybody else. And we have our heads down, we’re looking at the to do list and we’re just checking things off. And we’re not ever looking up to be like, do I want to be engaging in these activities? Who are these activities for do these activities need to be happening? You know, like the woman with all the committees, you’re just in a pattern of doing these committees, you don’t even bother to ask Do I want to be doing these committees and that, that, you know, that’s a that’s a big example of that. But that takes place with you know, all of this like getting on social media or You know, how we interact, hang out with friends or how we interact with our spouses, like we do these things? Because we think we’re supposed to do them versus checking in do I really want to be engaging in this activity? And that can go from, like you said, with the health to the, to the career all over the place. And I think when we don’t have self loyalty that allows our inner critic and I call our inner critic, the monger because mongar spread propaganda and that’s what our mongar does. For my clients that don’t that the self loyalty concept has kind of gone out the window and they’re living for everyone else. They have extremely loud mongers, so they have the voice in their head that’s constantly ridiculing them and telling them what they’re doing that they’re doing it wrong. Because they don’t have any way to come internally and be like this is okay, I’m going against the grain here. And I’m going to be okay. Having that source. You You know, as you said source of self love source of self loyalty, I call that character, the biggest fan, having that biggest fan that can that we can rely on who says, it’s okay that you didn’t do it perfectly. It’s okay that you didn’t get a shower today. And you got five zoom calls, and you got to figure this out, pull your hair back, let’s get going, you know,
Kim Strobel 20:21
yet, you know, I have to do a lot of work with women in my 90 day coaching program because their inner critic is completely leading their life. They’re not leading their life, their inner critic is and so we do a lot of work around that and, and I actually have them named their inner critic because my inner critics name is Ethel. And so like EPO has, like, you know, snakes for hair and she smoked cigarettes and she’s mean and rough and growls.
And, and so like the other day, I was taking my run and I’ve really been struggling with running. I’m an athlete and I am competitive. And my running has just been terrible for the last couple of months. And it’s been hot and humid, blah, blah, blah. But still, I’m like having to stop during my runs and take a breath. And Ethel was like in full force. She was like, oh, Kim, you’re just getting the middle aged, you know, you’re not going to be able to run anymore, and you’re just letting your body go to hell and you’re eating terribly, and you’re so weak and what happened to you, you don’t have a strong mindset anymore.
And she was just like saying all this nasty stuff to me. And I had a counselor one time, who introduced me to the concept because like Kim doesn’t know sometimes, how to extend self compassion to Kim. I can extend it to you and to my husband and my son and my friends and my neighbor, but I would never talk to them the way that I allow Ethel to talk to me. And so I want to know why we have This struggle struggle. Why is self compassion? Because that’s what we’re talking about. Why is it so hard for us?
Well, I don’t think we were ever taught self compassion. I mean, like, that isn’t something we’re societal Lee, we are raised on the idea of keep hustling, keep pushing, you know, keep going, then we’re kind of taught if if we give ourselves self compassion, we’re going to be soft. And that means we’re not going to keep pushing forward
Kim Strobel 22:29
and define that what is self compassion?
I think self compassion is self loyalty is self love. It is being able to say to yourself, oh, this is hard right now. This you know, really showing up for yourself and being able to identify
just being able to I say self compassion is being I say, it’s being able to talk to yourself, like your eight year old like you would talk to your eight year old niece. And I say nice, because it’s not your kid. It’s not your you know, it’s Not a random eight year old, it’s a it’s a person you have a relationship with. And you want to be mentoring but you also want to just shower with love. And and that’s the idea that when I can show up to myself and I like,
like, even when you’re running and you’re having a hard time and you’re competitive and you’re in Ethel’s going crazy to be able to say, gosh, it is really hard to run when it’s this hot outside, or it’s really hard to get myself to get out there when I’m feeling so low energy, because we forget that we have moods, and we have energy levels, and we go up and down. And some days it’s really hard. And some days it’s really easy. And a lot of us treat ourselves as if we should be consistently the same all the time. superhuman.
Kim Strobel 23:47
Yes, and I think what you’re saying there, which really helps is you’re saying create some space within you and say hey, so when you say eight year old niece, I’m I’m thinking of my little niece, Cora who is like a second daughter to me. And when I’m having that moment where I’m disappointed in myself, and my echo is talking so strongly, think about if my niece Cora was having that same moment, and how would I ask her aunt Kimmy, comfort her? What would I say to her? And, and actually that dialogue right there is what helps me because then I know what I would say to her. So how can I now extend that same kindness to myself is what you’re saying?
Yeah, because a lot of times what we do, which is, you know, we dismiss what we’re feeling. So it’s not okay that this is hard to run today. It’s not okay that I’m struggling with this, I should be better than that. I should be able to overcome this. And for me, everything started switching with my arm relationship with my inner critic, when I was able to just just open What was happening in that moment? To say, Gosh, it’s really hard today to run?
What’s that about? Why is it you know, and not get like, why is it so hard and let me solve the problem. But just observing today is hard. It’s a hard day to run. And I’m gonna be kind to myself today because I’m struggling. And when we have that self loyalty or that self love, we don’t get all tripped up with the fact that it’s hard today, because we know it might be easier tomorrow. Not everything. We don’t have to hold everything so tight, because we’re trying to keep this perfect. facade going all the time.
Kim Strobel 25:36
You know, you’re making me think of parenting. I grew up with two really great parents, but they were like all other parents. They were trained by their parents, which is, we’re not really going to talk about our negative feelings. You know, if you fall down and scrape your knee, you know, quit crying and get up and let’s go or you know what I mean? Yeah. And so, this kind of idea of loving kindness like What if I was allowed as a little girl to be
angry or to feel sad, and that those feelings in us that, you know, generations before us, we didn’t do feelings at all. And I’m not even sure that my age group did a lot of feelings. We are affectionate with our children and we tell them, I love them. But when the going gets tough, we don’t actually want to sit down and really process those negative feelings. And I know that’s something that I’ve had to work on with my own son, but this is why we don’t have these skills for ourselves, isn’t it?
Kim Strobel 26:37
Yes. Yeah. Never modeled for us. We were never like, even with my husband and I, you know, Kim, you know, you’re obviously feeling very angry. Can you tell me more about that? No. Instead he reciprocates with his own defensiveness because we are uncomfortable around negative feelings rather than letting ourselves feel them which I think You’re so spot on when you say this is necessary, we must feel the feelings.
And it doesn’t have to be I think, because we have it’s such feelings are such a mystery, you know, and we weren’t taught how to do it, we weren’t it’s not normalized. Learning how to suddenly be, we go to extremes. So we then what is modeled is why I’m feeling angry. So I’m going to get really angry, I’m going to yell, this is healthy, I’m expressing my feelings, you know. And that that isn’t the point is that we’ve taken it too far to the other side. When we do that. The idea is like, an example with your husband is to just be like, I’m angry, we can talk about that. I don’t have to take this to a 10 and scream and yell, I can just express the fact that this is what I’m angry about. And, and you can come back at me with what you’re angry about or how you know, and we can hash it out. But the problem with the modeling that we have is either we don’t talk about it because we don’t have time and we don’t want to go there or it So blown out and becomes this more dramatic, that we haven’t learned there’s a middle ground where I can just own today’s hard. I, the other day, I was walking the dog, I walk the dog every morning and, and I was having a rough morning and I was like, Come on, get it together, you know, my mongar was in there telling me I needed to be perfect. And you have to be grateful you have nothing to be upset about bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere came the voice that said, Gosh, it’s really hard to feel this way, when you know, you have a lot to be grateful about.
And it was just like, yeah,
Kim Strobel 28:34
that’s exactly it.
Like, I don’t want to feel this way. I don’t know why I’m feeling this way. But I am. So let’s just bring that to the forefront and be able to say it’s really hard to feel this way.
Whatever this way means. Yes, but I’m at least acknowledging something’s off. But we’re so quick to come in and tell ourselves that’s not appropriate. We have more to do. And then we ignore it until it becomes this ginormous You’re there, we’re screaming at our husband about the fact they didn’t empty the dishwasher, when really what we’re mad about is the fact that they, you know, didn’t listen to us this morning, when we were sharing a fear we had about a man conference we had,
Kim Strobel 29:11
yes, yes, oh, we need a lot of help with all of that. And I know for Scott Strobel, he just doesn’t know that he gets to be on this podcast so much of the time, but he really did grow up in a family that did not express any feelings at all. And so having a dialogue back and forth that is sometimes difficult is a skill set that he continues to work on. Because things do blow up quickly if there is a disagreement. And so and then things get over exaggerated, and then he’s pretty laid back and I feel like I have to, you know, lose my whole mind to get him to pay attention to what I’m saying. And so everything you’re describing is spot on for that. But I want to also offer the audience and so when I was in my own counseling session, and I had been really beating my myself up, and the counselor was trying to teach me how to have more self compassion, which that’s always the number one thing the counselors working with me on. You’re so judgy you know, I can I’m so judgy on Kim. And so what was interesting though, is I, so you know how I have a voice for the inner critic named Ethel. I couldn’t extend that self compassion to Kim. So she had me think of someone that I know who has just the most gentle, kind, loving heart. And so immediately I thought of my friend Jamila. Like Jamila is one of those people that I mean, I feel like if you did like the worst thing on earth, she would still like wrap her arms around you and she would talk in this like really soothing and kind voice and she would remind you of all of your goodness. And so now what I have to do is I actually have to, like now
I’ve named the nice person which is Jamila. So now Jamila has to come in. And she has to tell Kim the things that Kim can’t tell herself, you know. And so I think now I have Kim and I have Jamila, and I have Ethel that all live in my head. You know, 50 others voices that we all have going.
That’s totally Yeah. Because that’s why I mean, I because I told I love that idea of the separating out the voices because I think I mean, because in the book I wrote that you talked about at the beginning, the happier approach, I talked about the three voices, three of the many voices as you said, that we have, we have the mongar which is which is your Ethel and then I have the biggest fan which is your Gemma, how do you surname
Kim Strobel 31:43
Jamila is who I have the biggest fan and then I have a third voice, which is I call her the BFF voice and this is the voice of false self compassion. And that’s the voice that gets us into trouble because the monster We’ll come up and say you’re a loser, you can’t run, you’re just going to be, you know, a fat out of shape. Old woman, blah, blah, blah, all the terrible stuff, she says, and then the BFF comes in and is like, yeah, let’s just take, let’s just take tomorrow off, let’s just not run. And we’re just gonna, you know, sit and have some pancakes, and it’ll all be fine. And we’ll just take and then, and then the longer cup comes in to be like, No, no, and then they go back and forth, and they keep fighting. And because we don’t understand the concept of self compassion, which is messy, and imperfect, we think self compassion is this, do whatever you want. Pay no consequences. idea, and that is, that’s I lived in that spot for a long time where my mongar and my BFF were, were fighting back and forth. And that, in my opinion, is where anxiety lives. Yeah,
Kim Strobel 32:51
because they’re there. They were both fighting for control of you.
Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah.
Kim Strobel 32:58
Interesting. That is So interesting. I think, you know, this is just so so helpful this conversation, understanding, it’s really just getting the the people who are listening, it’s getting you to become aware of how quickly and how often we berate ourselves. And if you again I love that analogy if you wouldn’t talk to your eight year old niece who is having that struggle in that way. Why do you think it’s okay to talk to yourself because if anybody works hard for you, the you know, you work the hardest for yourself you’re doing and and you know, creating and taking care of things and your whole day is spent doing sometimes for others, but you can’t extend enough gratitude and graciousness that there are some, you know, cracks or flaws or struggles or failures or imperfections But also reside in you.
Because I think that’s a big you know, I can remember years ago I did a presentation. I did a presentation about mongoose and I was talking about the inner critic and and a group of my girlfriends were at the presentation and one of my best friends came up to me after and she was like, Great presentation. I loved it. I have a really loud monger, I could totally relate. I’m not doing anything you said to do because I need that longer, or I won’t get anything done. And I looked at her and was like, and I laughed, you know, and we kind of went on, and I got calm and I was like, I totally agree with her. Like I here I am teaching about how to not have this nasty inner critic and I’m secretly in this love affair with her.
Because she is I believe is helping me stay motivated. And on top of it, and and i’m i i My theory is and this is all theory, that that we have that belief because Has, if we ridicule ourselves all the time, we never have to really, we don’t see the nuances of ourselves, we don’t see that. Yeah, we are imperfect, and we mess up, and we don’t do it right. And we do great things too, we do all it’s all messy. And we want it to be really simple, that I’m a loser who needs to be harassed all the time. And, you know, and, and that’s the image I’m gonna, you know, that’s what I believe internally. But externally, I’m going to put up this front but I have it all together and I’m perfectly on top of it. And I’m, and I’m totally organized and we don’t want anyone to see any flaws anywhere. And then till we’re ready to, to show those flaws and, and and talk to ourselves, like we would eight year old nice around those flaws. We will always be running from them and we will always buy into the lies of the inner critic.
Kim Strobel 35:54
So okay, I have one more question. And so do you think that the inner critic It does serve a helpful purpose in some situations.
I think the inner critic has, I think her sometimes her message is correct. Her message, her tone is the problem.
Kim Strobel 36:20
Like like that, that is so good.
So sometimes I’m not saying every time you know, she can be irrational and she could just harass us, but sometimes she’s like, you know, you really did like I had a client recently who had a job interview, she didn’t get the job. And we were working on you know, helping her get her biggest fan going and not listening to her longer and and it was a few days later, and her longer was still really loud. And she said, I realized there were things in the interview, I didn’t do right. And I could have improved on and once she owned that once she was saying these are the things I didn’t do, right and these are the things I could improve on, which is what her mom had been telling her. Yes, but the tone was terrible.
Then Longer went away.
Kim Strobel 37:01
Oh, that’s so good. So it’s okay to get feedback from ourselves. But we have to be aware of the tone that we’re using to give ourselves that feedback.
Kim Strobel 37:16
Ah, that is so good. Now this is good. I’m going to read this thing called Ubuntu. Ooh,
boon to that’s how I think it’s stated boon to. And I think this kind of relates. So when we’re talking about loving kindness, when we’re talking about not focusing so much on our flaws and mistakes and imperfections, and yes, looking at them and reflecting upon them and saying, How can we do better, but not letting those things change who we are at the core of ourselves? I think so much of the time, you know, we step into shame and blame because we think that if we use shame and blame, that that’s going to change our behavior. And in fact, we use shame and blame with others, right? Whether it’s Our guides are. And what I always say is shame and blame never causes a behavior change. And so there’s this term called it’s an African term I believe called lubuntu. And I’m going to read this to you all because I feel like it’s so powerful and if we can envision just doing this even for ourselves, but it says in certain regions of South Africa, when someone does something wrong, he is taken to the center of the village and surrounded by his tribe for two days.
While they speak, of all the good he has done. They believe each person is good, yet sometimes we make mistakes, which is really a cry for help. They unite in this ritual to encourage the person to reconnect with his true nature. The belief is that unity and affirmation have more power to change. behavior than shame and punishment. This is known as a boon to humanity toward others. And it just makes me think, if we can stop shaming and blaming ourselves, for the behaviors that we don’t like, understanding that that is not what’s going to motivate us. It’s not healthy. It’s not how we heal. But if we can just imagine a tribe of others, just even yourself if you have to remind yourself of all that you do do in a day’s time. And why do we you know, have to pick ourselves apart? let’s acknowledge where our mistakes are. Let’s learn from those. But let’s also not block out all the goodness that is a part of each and every one of us.
I just love that. I that’s beautiful. That’s Yeah, that’s really cool.
Kim Strobel 39:57
We have a lot to learn from those South Africans. If not SSE Yes. Okay, Miss Nancy. So I am going to in this with a rapid fire. five questions. Are you ready? I’m ready. Okay. What’s the show that you’re currently been watching? binge watch?
My husband and I good we have we just started rewatching house.
Old episode rewatch shows.
I know. It blew my mind.
Kim Strobel 40:33
You’re one of the re watchers. I could never do that.
I haven’t watched a lot of them. My husband is rewatching i have i’ve we haven’t gotten to the repeats yet. But it has been so fun like just to it’s just a mindless show and we’ve watched it every night we watch a couple episodes. It’s been really fun,
Kim Strobel 40:49
fun, fun routine. And what is your favorite food? Pizza. Okay, what is one of your biggest fears?
One of my biggest fears
the first thing that pops in my head was making a fool of myself.
Kim Strobel 41:09
And then my next question was what would that be? And I don’t have an example but I think that’s a fear that keeps me that holds me back.
Kim Strobel 41:18
Yes. Billing fear of humiliation, I guess. Yes. Yeah. That humiliation is a very terrible feeling to feel.
Kim Strobel 41:27
um, what is something that most people would not know about you?
Oh, what is something most people wouldn’t know about me?
Kim Strobel 41:37
It can be something from foreign your past or more recent
when you don’t have a complete blank.
So I guess it would say I traveled to South Africa, in the spirit of the Buddha.
When you said that I didn’t remember what it meant, what it meant which the reading was really bad. But I was like, Oh yeah, I remember from when I and I got to travel there
with. I worked in college student personnel for a while. And so I was with a bunch of college students who were who were studying apartheid. And so was a not a traditional trip, like we stayed in, in the townships, with families, and we worked, you know, regular jobs. And it was, it was all in the experience of through the lens of apartheid. It was a really powerful trip, I bet.
Kim Strobel 42:32
Wow. And then my very last question is, how are you Nancy reaching for more joy in your life? Wow, am I reaching for more joy?
You know, it’s an intro. I just started this I just realized recently I have tested for a wheat intolerance. And so I have been taking wheat out of my diet. I just started this week. And the interesting thing with that, that has not brought me more joy. Just simply
Kim Strobel 43:00
I was gonna say this.
But what it has done is it’s reinvigorated me in that, you know, not to bring it all back to self loyalty. But it has reinvigorated me to, to, to start asking that question more of what brings me more joy, in the sense of I recognize how I’ve just gotten the wheat it’s actually feeling better getting off of the wheat and so I’m tapping into more energy than I’ve had in the past. And I think that that is reminding me of who I am and I have really been I have arthritis and, and irritable bowel syndrome and all these and some health issues that have really been controlling me in the past few years. And so taking back control of my life with this blade doing this experiment, I don’t know if it’s going to work, but doing this experiment has brought me more joy because I am tuning back into myself to be like, what else is there that I’m new kind of that expansiveness which is interesting, because I wouldn’t have thought restricting a food group would make me feel more expansive. But in so many ways that has Yeah, so that’s a weird answer to the question, but what
Kim Strobel 44:17
do you think about people who do fasting and that’s good Catholics who Yeah, so yeah, I mean, I think there is something to that. Okay. And very last, where can people find you?
So they can find me at my website, live dash happier, calm, and they can my order. My book is there, the happier approach, and I also have a podcast called the happier approach podcast that is available wherever you listen to podcasts.
Kim Strobel 44:43
Excellent. And we will drop all of that in the show notes. Nancy, it’s been a real pleasure. I appreciate your ability to go deep with us on having to helping us understand these topics and how they play out in our life. So thank you so much.
Thank you. This was awesome.