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In this episode, Kim interviews Lindsay Bryan-Podvin, a licensed financial therapist. She helps people get their mind and money in balance using financial psychology.
Lindsay explains our mindsets around money and how psychology and emotions play a bigger role than we think—it’s not all budgeting and bookkeeping. Kim and Lindsay break down some of the limiting beliefs we all tend to hold about money, and dig into how they affect our ability to find peace, freedom, and happiness.
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Tune in to hear Lindsay share:
- Why money is mostly emotional and psychological, and less about the strategy of bookkeeping.
- The four financial archetypes and how they shape our relationship to money.
- Why wanting and having money isn’t a bad thing!
- What things from your past could be impacting your relationship with money and your money mindset.
- What women need to know when it comes to breaking down old social constructs and systemic beliefs around money.
- The research on the correlation between the amount of money you earn and your levels of happiness.
“Understanding money is more than financial literacy, although that is important. It’s deeper and has much to do with your mindset.” – Lindsay Bryan-Podvin
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Check out this Episode on Youtube as well.
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- Website www.mindmoneybalance.com
- Instagram @mindmoneybalance
- LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsaybryanpodvin/
- Podcast: www.mindmoneybalance.com/podcast1
- Lindsay’s Quiz: www.mindmoneybalance.com/quiz
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Lindsay Bryan-Podvin is a biracial financial therapist, speaker, podcaster, and author. As the first financial therapist in Michigan, she combines financial literacy with the emotional and psychological side of money. She’s passionate about helping couples and individuals learn how to get their mind and money in balance. In addition to her clinical work, she also helps other private practice therapists cultivate a healthy relationship with money so they grow sustainable and profitable businesses!
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Kim Strobel is Chief Happiness Officer at Kim Strobel Live Events and Retreats. She is a teacher, consultant, motivational speaker, happiness coach, and a mission-minded person whose passion is helping others overcome their fears and discover their joy!
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Kim Strobel 00:19
Welcome, everyone to today’s show I am so excited about my next guest. Her name is Lindsey Brian potvin. And she is a biracial financial therapist, Speaker podcaster and author. As the first financial therapist in Miss Michigan. She combines financial literacy with the emotional and psychological side of money. She’s passionate about helping couples and individuals learn how to get their money and mind in balance. In addition to her clinical work, she also helps other private practice therapist cultivate a healthy relationship with money, so they grow sustainable, and profitable businesses. Lindsay, I’m so excited to have you on this podcast to talk about this word called money.
Yes, Kim. No, I’m so happy to be here.
Kim Strobel 01:15
Yeah, this is great. You know, I have studied money for really hard I would say for the last like 10 years, like on my bookshelf behind me here, I have so many money mindset books, I’m currently getting ready to dive, dive into the illusion of money. I don’t know if you’ve heard of that one. But I’m all about learning the energy around money, and then the mindset that we bring to money that also kind of affects our ability to create money and hold on to money. So I am so excited to dive into this because I’m also really sick of the word money being like a taboo subject that we’re not supposed to talk about. Yeah. So anyway, give us your background. Tell us a little bit about you, my audience, we want to know, how did you get here? What does this look like?
Yeah, of course. So as you mentioned, I, my financial therapist, my background professionally is that I was a clinical social worker for many years. And I spent a lot of time in the depression and anxiety space. And I really did love that work. And in my personal life, I had graduated right into the Great Recession. And I came from a lot of financial privilege. And even with that financial privilege and knowledge, I still felt behind and confused and struggled with getting things kind of in alignment. So as I did my own money work behind the scenes, both in terms of financial literacy and the money mindset stuff that you’d mentioned Kim, I realized in my practice that so many people had money issues. And as a social worker, I was not trained to talk to my clients about money. We were essentially trained like, Look, if they bring up money that’s outside of your scope of practice, you need to refer out to like a debt consolidator or to a financial advisor. And I think those things aren’t bad. Like, that’s not bad advice in and of itself. But it wasn’t as all encompassing, as I was hoping. And I really felt like as I was sitting here with my clients like, this is more than just a financial literacy issue. And being trained in anxiety and depression. I could tell even if there were no studies telling me I could tell that there was a link between our emotional wellness and our relationship with money. And I just, I was kind of sick of referring out when I felt like there, there here were people who felt comfortable enough to talk to me about depression and anxiety. And yet, I was supposed to turn them away when it came to money. And I really wanted to hold space for them safely, ethically. So I sought out additional training in financial social work and in financial therapy, which essentially reaffirmed a lot of my personal learning, but it made me feel comfortable and confident and ethical and offering this service to others. So I officially got certified in everything in May of 2018. There are not that many of us. And somewhere between 50 and 300 financial therapists in the United States. It’s tricky because there isn’t one database. So it just depends on which database you’re looking at. But to to date, I am maybe one of two financial therapists in Michigan, I was the first one here and like a lot of other fields, they trend towards older white males. And so I also bring that lens of being biracial being younger being a woman that helped a lot of my clients just to feel comfortable sitting in the same space with me and my work is Like 10%, about financial literacy and like 90% about what money means to us, what our relationship with that is like what money stories we’ve soaked up. So I’m really, really into the psychological side of money and less about like, how to track your numbers and create a budget and all that not that there’s not value there. There absolutely is. But my work is much more focused on why it’s hard to sit down and create a budget in the first place. Yeah, why we feel uncomfortable talking to our spouse about money, why we have a hard time raising our rates or hiring out help for the entrepreneurs listening. Right. So so that’s a little bit about how I got where I am.
Kim Strobel 05:38
So you’ve said several things that just in that, that I want to break apart. So it’s interesting, Lindsay, I did not know that you had a specialty in anxiety and depression. So do you realize you are talking to the woman who struggled greatly with panic disorder for most of her life? Yeah, I
heard on a couple of your episodes you sharing about that. So I didn’t know that that was present, just from
Kim Strobel 06:02
what you’ve shared. Yeah, I love that you have that. Because that’s like a platform that I’m really passionate about helping people understand that they might have these vulnerabilities, but that they also have within them the resilience to get the tools to work through those. And so I always laugh that I’m the girl who like struggled to walk to her mailbox. And now I’m the girl that stands on a stage with thousands of people. And I think God just has a really funny sense of humor sometimes.
Kim Strobel 06:33
Right? The other thing that you said that I really love? Well, I love I love the term financial literacy. I love that. And I know you are much more than that. But for my people, let’s even break down what does that mean financial literacy and why, as a former educator, it’s just kills
me that we’re not teaching this stuff in schools. It’s just, it’s crazy. It’s, you know, it’s 2020, maybe 2021, when you’re listening to this episode, and we aren’t teaching kids about the energy of money, nor are we teaching them about financial literacy. So explain that term to my audience.
Absolutely. So financial literacy, when we break it down, if we think of what literacy is, it’s the ability to read and understand and comprehend things. And so when we tack on the word financial in front of it, it’s our ability to understand the not only just the terminology and personal finance, but also how it applies to your life. So your ability to read, let’s say, a bank statement to understand what certain terms on your 401k are, I heard you talking
about getting your son involved in a Roth IRA, being able to read some of those terms. And what we know, you know, Kim, you know, as an educator, is that knowledge truly does provide power and confidence. And so when we can understand what these terms are, we feel more comfortable and confident engaging with our money. My belief is that money stuff is really not that complicated. But they coat it in a bunch of jargon that makes it feel intimidating, and like we can’t understand it. But when we break it down, it’s it’s very simple. I mean, I failed college algebra, math is not my strong suit. And this is what I do for a living, which goes to show that this type of math is very, very easy to understand. And Hint, Hint, we have a thing called Google and you can plug in basically any formula you want into a calculator online and learn about that. So that’s what financial literacy is,
Kim Strobel 08:36
okay. And so what you’re saying is, that’s a piece for sure that we need to understand, but it is not the end all be all. And I like how you even called out like, you know, like my brother’s an Edward Jones, financial advisor, and he is so very good at the financial literacy piece. But what I love is that, you know, we have these, like social constructs that tell us, this is how we do it. And we’re basing this on the last 50 or 100 years of what is right. But guess what, now we know more now we know there’s a psychological mindset behind the ability to attract money to hold on to money to let money flow through you all of these things. And I really love that you are breaking the barrier there and saying, guess what, it’s not all about just following this formula for creating a budget or knowing how to do your bookkeeping. There’s so much more behind that. And I get so excited when I interview people who are like, to me, it’s almost like peeling back the facade and helping us understand things at a very different level. And I’m going to give you an analogy of this because I don’t know if it relates or not, but when you were talking it made me think of my 20 year old who was home this weekend from Indiana. University and he said to me, he’s become very interested in like investments in the stock market and different things. And he said to me, Mom, I’m just gonna say it, I never want to work a nine to five job. And I think I can create a business where I’m not tied to that. And I don’t know if he can or can’t, I believe that he can, I definitely believe in him. But what I loved is, he is pushing back against that belief that says, hey, we all have to, like, get the college degree, which I definitely Personally, I feel like, that’s very important for him to get I know his brain, but he’s pushing back against, like, I’m gonna be in corporate America with my head to the grindstone from nine to five for the next 50 years. And so he’s, you know, kind of allowing himself to break through those barriers. And I feel like that’s a lot of what you were saying, when you’re saying, you know, a lot of older men who are financial advisors, who are probably excellent at their job, but you and I both know, there’s this whole other layer that can make a person much more fruitful. And that’s the, that’s your niche, isn’t it? That’s the piece that you come to share.
Yeah, I mean, so many of my clients can, will come to me and say, Look, I’m earning good money, or I know how to manage my money. And I still feel anxious, uncomfortable, annoyed, irritated when it comes to engaging with my money. And when I say engaging with my money, think of it as any time you interact with your money in a meaningful way. It’s like a touch point, it’s when you spend money, it’s when you earn it, it’s when you lend it, it’s when you save it, anytime there’s some sort of interaction with it. So many of us are just uncomfortable with it, we don’t know what it means, beyond like being able to pay for our groceries and stuff. And in so many, my clients are doing fine financially, but they still feel weird about it. And I say weird as like a very nebulous thing, because that’s the reality. So many people come in, and they don’t even have the language to say, I feel really uncomfortable engaging with my money, they just say like, oh, when bills come, I like hit pay, and kind of close my eyes and hope that I’m done and count down 29 days that I don’t have to look at my money again. Right. And, and I love that your son is saying, Look, there is once we start to build a relationship with money, we can start to see outside of kind of the the paths that have been laid out for us about how we’re supposed to do money or do work, right.
Kim Strobel 12:37
I mean, I am thinking of a family member right now that I know, is probably extremely well off, they have the retired, they have at least a half million dollars that just sits and grows. And they literally will never order dessert when they go out to eat. They will they are like they they hoard their money, right? Like it’s the scarcity mindset, like it’s just never going to be enough. And money, I have to kind of like keep it all and not be frivolous and not enjoy it. And that kind of energy makes me really sad. Because I think like, you know, they’re not able to enjoy the money that they have. And so tell us tell us, let’s break this down. Tell me how money. How is money emotional? I want I want your explanation of this. Because I feel like that’s kind of what we’re leading into right? These feelings around money.
Yeah. So if we think about any other concept, let’s take you know, learning how to read learning how to ride a bike, cooking meals, anything like that we learn about these things from a young age. And as you know, as an educator, the bulk of our brain development is happening between the ages of zero and seven, zero and eight. So if you rewind back to what messages you were picking up about money in elementary school, and we imagine that seven or eight year old brain dictating what you are doing with your money as an adult, it makes sense why it seems so irrational, because, as you mentioned earlier, money is still taboo. So we learn this information about money when we are children. We aren’t taught hardly anything about it as we grow up, and then all of a sudden, once we turn 18 we’re supposed to be out on our own and just magically know what to do with money. And so with that can come guilt can come shame can come embarrassment, fear. Um, but when we think about these different imprints that are left on us as children, they kind of shape it into I call them money archetypes for different personas about how we relate to our money, and thinking of the family member who who kind of holds on tightly to money. One thing that can be helpful is to think about how that obviously served them at some point in time. They might have learned growing up, maybe their parents were making this up. But like maybe their parents weren’t well off, and they heard growing up, you have to hold on to money, or we can’t afford that, or we can’t go there because we can’t, you know, afford to spend money on that. So the message they got was, if you get money, you have to hold on tightly to it, because you never know when more will come. And so that served them temporarily, when they started earning money and started saving. They were rewarded by looking at their bank account and seeing it grow and feeling temporarily secure. But because they never cultivated a healthy relationship with money. The relationship with money is like you said, fear based. They think that there’s something important about holding on to it so tightly that they never let it go. And it’s counterintuitive that here these people are sitting on half a million dollars, and they don’t have to, like go out and buy a small island somewhere. But they certainly can afford to buy the desert when they go out to eat. And so having an emotionally healthy relationship with money means that they can hold space for those two things. They can say we have enough money to stay safe and secure. And we are comfortable enough to enjoy what money affords us, even if that is a slice of tiramisu.
Kim Strobel 16:16
Yes, yes. And so what archetype type? Is that that you just described?
Yeah, so there are four that one is the doomsday prepper. And then there’s also blissfully ignorant admirer and free spirit. And we can kind of talk a little bit about each of them. Yeah,
Kim Strobel 16:33
let’s let’s talk about each of those. Because I really want people to identify which one they think they fall in. And I love that explanation at the family member that I’m thinking of. And I think, you know, back in the day, it was, there was a scarcity to like, Can we feed our children? And are we going to be able to make this month’s payment and there wasn’t a lot of money. And so then as the money grew, and things weren’t so tight, they still held on to that mindset, right. And so that content, and then what I happen to know is that that mindset heavily influenced their children as well. Because you’re right, we we get those messages from early on. I mean, one of the things like my dad used to say, and it’s such a simple thing, but he would say like, you eat everything on your plate, because there are people starving in Ethiopia, like, and so I always laugh, like, I’m surprised I don’t have a huge weight problem, because you know what I mean? Like, you hear those messages, and people think, you know, yeah, I was told that too. But honestly, those messages seep into our like, cellular makeup, they seep into our belief system, right. Okay, let’s dive into all four. I can’t wait. Yeah,
of course. So let’s start with the one that we were talking about, which is the doomsday prepper. And so this person, they tend to associate money, they have this interesting duality with money, where they think that it provides them security, so they like to hold on tightly to it. But the holding on tightly to it prevents them from being able to use it in a meaningful way. So we know these people, they are coupon cutters, they’re the people who don’t want to go out to eat, they are the people who want the best bargain on everything. And they have this interesting mix of I want money. And when I get it, I just want to hold on to it. So they’re kind of always in this mode of earning and saving, but then kind of being secretive about it. Right. These are the people who you read about who passed away with millions in the bank, and you’re like, what, they drove this same Toyota for 35 years, and they never went on a vacation ever. So that’s your Doomsday prepper. And so they do have some strengths, right? They have some strengths in terms of, you know, statistically, they’re less likely to hide secrets from their partners, they are less likely to be in debt, they are more likely to have an emergency fund. So financially, they tend to be doing pretty well. But then the challenges, there are the ability to enjoy that money. So that’s the doomsday prepper.
Kim Strobel 19:11
And then I love that that’s such a great description, like in my head, I was thinking of all the people I know that fit that like, yes. Like, I have a brother and he he too is in finance, and he’s fantastic. And sometimes I worry that like, I need to adopt more of his mindset, but like, he is like, he has coupon books next to like he he is a 30 you know, seven year old guy who like reads coupon cutting books, and he’s like, really, really, really tight. But then there’s this little part of me sometimes because I’m more of like the spender and I’m like, Well, here’s what my money mindset says like, well, I guess you know, Jared, I’ll be the millionaire when he retires and I’ll be the one you know, it’s like yes, his mindset and then my mindset were that comes in and says like, Oh, I should be much more more careful with my money. So
which is so so typical right of the messages that women specifically get women get the message that they have to cut coupons that they have to be mindful of household spending. So it makes sense that you might trend a certain way, but then feel bad about it, because society really tells us, hey, you’re not allowed to do that your money should be spent on your children and on your household, but not on you. So there’s a lot of that there, too. So let’s let’s Oh, go ahead, Kim.
Kim Strobel 20:30
What I love it.
So you identify I am, I mean, based on that little snippet,
maybe more as the free spirit, which is another archetype. And this is the person who we also know tends to be the spender. But it doesn’t come from, you know, just being frivolous, it really comes from they believe money is meant to be enjoyed and used and flow freely. So they really value things like spontaneity, they really value like the finer things in life, they tend to trend towards like trends and brand name items, they like the idea of what money can afford them. And so of course, some of the strengths there that they tend to be incredibly generous, they tend to be really kind gift givers, they tend to help people enjoy their money. And then some of those challenges, of course, can be that their risk of overspending. They also have this interesting duality, where they tend to be more spiritually minded, they tend to believe things like, you know, the universe will take care of me or God will provide, which is a beautiful thought. And maybe they don’t do enough of the financial literacy literacy side to kind of balance it out. So yeah, I kid my son, you know, when I said that,
Kim Strobel 21:45
I’m laughing because like, you know, I read all kinds of books about like, I’m big into the law of attraction, which is like, my thoughts create my reality. But that doesn’t mean like, Oh, I’m just going to slap a picture of the lake home that I want on my vision board, you know, like, I also have my rocks going every year, and my simple IRA is going every year,
and I have my savings account built up, and I have my vehicles where, you know, we’re debt free, except for our home. And so it’s like, I wouldn’t you’re talking about that I can, I can see where like, I would fit into that category. But then, like, I see my friend Angie, who would fit into the category of like, like, She’s so free spirited that like it, it’s, it’s crazy amounts of money that go out the door, and very little like financial literacy, you know. So I love that I can see all these different forms and different people within that one archetype.
Yeah, and that’s exactly right. We all have these archetypes exist on a spectrum, and there are strengths, and there are challenges of existing within them. And rather than try and force our way out of an archetype, to me, it’s better to work within whatever our makeup is, and say, Okay, here’s my natural disposition, I might not go from being a spender to a saver, but I can dial down spending out of alignment with my values, right? Like, we can make these tweaks that are still within what feels good for us.
Kim Strobel 23:15
And I also like that, you know, you’re giving the positives of each one of these two, because, right, we don’t, it doesn’t help if we feel shame around money, you know, and so I love that you’re giving the the negatives and the positives, and that is really helpful. Okay, so what’s the next one?
so we’ve got blissfully ignorant, which this is a person who they just don’t
want to deal with money, because somewhere they have absorbed the message that money makes them greedy, or money makes them bad, or money is for, you know, surface level people. So because they’ve kind of absorbed that message, they don’t want to deal with it, because they’re afraid that if they engage with it, that somehow they’ll like flip into becoming a greedy person. And so for them, the challenges are that they don’t like engaging with their money, they tend to self sabotage. And it might not be so blatant, but it’s often like giving away things not charging for services or not advocating for a raise or a promotion, right. It’s these things where they’re like, I don’t want to rock the boat. I don’t want to come across as sleazy in any way. So I’m just going to not engage with my money. And so some of the strengths are that they tend to be really community minded and community oriented. So we can use those things to their advantage as we’re working on like cultivating a healthy relationship with money. Maybe we have to hit pause on financial charitable giving, and we can do more volunteering like ours or expertise until we kind of get an alignment and then we can move forward. But the blissfully ignorant is one that is actually the most common amongst women and women People in helping and healing professions because if you think about helpers, and healers, teachers, social workers, nurses, they’re often taught things or told things like, you didn’t go into this field to make money. Money isn’t important to you, blah, blah, blah. So they get these extra messages that only continue to reinforce that somehow money is bad. So that’s our blissfully ignorant. And so and I know
Kim Strobel 25:23
we’re gonna jump into this too, because one of this the the beliefs that I think that people grab on to, and I think you’re going to talk about how money relates to happiness later on in the episode, but like one of the beliefs that actually prevents people from being able to
attract a crew and hold on to money and have good energy around money is that whole belief like, well, money should not be important to you, it should not be a focus or money doesn’t bring you happiness. So should should we speak on that now? Or later? Because I yeah,
let’s get through the archetypes then we’ll talk
Kim Strobel 26:01
about all right. I can’t wait to talk about that.
All right. Fourth, yes. The fourth and final one is the money admirer. And this is the person who tends to associate money with security and freedom, which tends to kind of perpetuate the cycle of wanting to earn. So these are people who are often they have multiple side hustles. They’re often very entrepreneurial, if they’re traditionally employed, they’re putting in long hours. And their belief is like, if I have more than I will feel better. And that better, you can plug into anything else I will feel more secure, I will be able to sleep at night, I will be able to relax. But the problem is that they’re often kind of on this hamster wheel where they’re like, Okay, once I hit six figures, then I can take a day off, but then they hit six figures. And they’re like, ah, but you know, what, if I could just get a little bit more than I could actually relax. So they often kind of end up on this hamster wheel of chasing more money, rather than being able to pause and accept the the abundance that has come in to their lives and appreciate the work that they had to use to get there. So some of the strengths, of course, are their ability for entrepreneurship, their ability to work hard. And they also can appreciate people who have like strong drives, these tend to be really passionate people, really intense people. And then of course, some of those challenges are again, that duality of maybe they overwork, they often keep things from their partners. And again, it’s not out of maliciousness, but it’s out of I can get myself out of this, or I can do this on my own. There’s like a strong, independent streak with the admirer. And the difference between the admirer and the free spirit is that they’re both motivated by money. But for the free spirit, it’s more about the outward experience of money. And for the admirer it’s more about just the idea of having money. So they’re a little bit different in terms of their motivation. So that’s the admirer. Interesting, interesting. So just to review the four again, their names start from the first one. Yep, so we have Doomsday prepper we have the free spirit, blissfully ignorant and money admirer.
Kim Strobel 28:18
Okay, that is really helpful. And I would encourage anybody listening to think about like, which category you might find yourself in because right knowledge is power. And so when we can just be like, yeah, okay, that kind of resonates with with my relationship with money. But you know, why, especially for women? Why is money such a difficult relationship? Lindsey? Oh, it’s
a really good question. And it’s nuanced. So there’s a few things. One is that society, we have been told, as I mentioned earlier, that women are to manage money within a household. But once they leave that household, all of a sudden, these negative stereotypes come up about women and money, things like she shouldn’t be trusted with a credit card, she’s just going to go spend, she doesn’t know any better. Think about, you know, if I go car shopping, I almost always bring my husband along, not because I’m not knowledgeable, but because we know that there is a tendency to think that women don’t know as much, and so we can get harmed in that way. So there’s like the societal expectations, then there are the actual systemic reasons why women are behind financially. You know, it wasn’t until the 60s that women could have their own bank accounts. It was until the 70s until they were able to have access to credit. So credit limits, credit cards, things like that. So we were way behind, just in terms of access to wealth, you know, this is only been 50 years, you know, 5060 years, if you think about it, that we’ve been able to have true financial independence. So just from a systemic, look at it, we are behind so we’ve got societal expectations, and we have the systemic expectations. And even though we have made great strides in pushing for equality between men and women, the reality is these types of things take a long time to get our heads around and for society get to, to get their heads around. And so I think so many women, they have to combat those things, that having money can be beneficial, not just for you, but for your community. You know, in, I was doing a breath work class, virtually, of course, you know, we’re selling COVID dimes, and the the guide, who was talking about us just kept repeating self care is community care, self care is community care. And what I took away from that, and how it lines up with my work is financial self care, is financial community care, when we take care of ourselves financially, we can then kind of have that ripple effect out into our communities and out into the causes that are important to us, we are told so often that we should be last on the totem pole, we are after our kids, our partners, our dogs, our jobs, our whatever, then we come. So we also have to start just just owning that it’s okay for us to have a relationship with money, it’s okay for us to earn it and save it and spend it. So there there are a lot of complicating factors, but those would be a few that come to mind.
Kim Strobel 31:22
Yeah, and you know, and it’s also okay, for I want to say this to the women, because so many times when vetting people for my coaching program, and we go over the price points, they are like, Oh, well, I need to, I’m gonna have to see if my husband like, it just makes me crazy, like women, you are allowed to make decisions around money, you don’t always have to get permission. Yes, if it’s like a high dollar program, I’m going to have a conversation with Scott Strobel about it, I would never go, you know, throw five or 10 or 15. Well, I did one time, but for the most part, you know, I am not going to spin a big chunk of money without letting them know, Hey, this is something that’s really important to me, and I plan on doing it, do you have any thoughts, but like, you don’t get to make a decision on how I spend some of our money. So that to me is also like ladies, you are allowed to be invested in the decisions of how you spend your money. I had another lady who joined my coaching program and she goes, Kim, I am I bought myself a new pair of tennis shoes in like five years. And I’m like, Angie, how did you possibly get yourself to the point where you could invest in my program? And she goes, I’ll tell you why. She said because the thousands of dollars every year for 20 years that I’ve spent on my girls and their soccer camps. I thought after 20 years, maybe it’s okay if mom spent some money on herself. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that and then the other part of that is I just learned that about women were not allowed to have their own checking account until like in the 70s. Like in the 60s, if you wanted a checking account, you had to take your husband to the bank, and have his name added on it. And so I think this is helpful, because it helps us understand that this is the kind of crap that is still affecting us today.
Right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s, it’s interesting, right? So I do a lot of work with couples. And so how do we cultivate that balance, especially when we are about equality? And it’s important to us, there is still that wrestling of do I just keep my money all to myself? Do I not tell them anything? How do we kind of bridge the gap, and I’ll just share two examples from my personal life and your listeners can go, Okay, I could see how that works. Or you know what, that doesn’t work for me. But another thing to me about money is we don’t know how anybody else organizes it. So anytime I can share a story about here’s how I actually organize my money and manage it, I think it can help to dial down that stigma. So personally, my partner and I share all of our monies. But at the start of the month, we essentially get like an allowance each of us and I can spend my money however I want and he can spend as money however he wants. So if I want to go again COVID was standing to the spa for a weekend. Cool, I can do it. No judgment allowed. If he wants to go blow it on a golf trip. Cool. If I want to hoard it, um, few years ago, I got a matching tattoo piece with my siblings. And so I saved up a couple of months of my fun money and then went to Manhattan for the weekend or went to Brooklyn for the weekend. We got our tattoos, we went to a show. It was amazing, right? So there are ways to have money that feels autonomous to you. Now in the business side of my life, my partner and I I’ve been in business since 2017. And so my partner and I kind have created a rule at the beginning. And we check in, I would say quarterly on it. But essentially, it was like Lindsey has to bring an X dollars each month. And then whatever she does otherwise is hers. And that means that I get to decide how I want to spend my profits, if I want to put a bunch of money into my solo 401k. Or if I want to invest in a coaching program, if I want to give myself a bonus, right, all of those things are my freedom. And it’s just thinking about like, you just have to essentially bring in X for a paycheck each month. And so that that was a way that we did it that worked for us.
Kim Strobel 35:39
then if the partners have two different income levels, let’s just say that one partner brings in $100,000, a year to the family and the other partner brings in $30,000 a year to the family. Does that mean that the partner who brings in 30,000 gets a much lower allowance? No. See? Well,
yes, speak to that speak to that it’s equal, because here’s the thing, your income is not your self worth, it does not determine how much you bring to that relationship, or how valuable you are. I hate that proportional stuff. If you bring in 70% of the income, then you get to like spend 70% of if you bring in 30% of the income, then you get 30% of it. It only further diminishes a person’s value. So no, my partner and I get equal money, whether he’s making more whether I’m making more because we bring different things to the relationship at different points in our lives. So to me, to us, that is what has worked, and I don’t I don’t really buy into that proportional percentage based stuff that was really popular maybe 1015 years ago, it feels like that was really popular. And it’s I still hear it now. But it’s I mean, can you imagine I mean, we all can imagine, right? Again, I’m I don’t have children, my partner and I are planning on it. But when we think of women leaving the workforce when they have children, and it is mostly women, statistically, it continues to be if a woman is out of the workforce for one to five years, she is missing out not just on one to five years of her traditional salary, but on one to five years of professional development of getting raises. So you’re going to not just punish her for having a child but then punish her financially because she wasn’t able to keep up with or get ahead of her if she’s with a male partner with her male partner. So no, I
Kim Strobel 37:34
I love that answer. Because that’s also something that the women I sometimes work with, they are like, Well, you know, I just don’t feel right taking this money because like, I don’t earn, here’s what I’m going to tell you. And Scott Strobel is a good good man. But like on our last week group coaching call with my women, we started talking about the invisible
workload of mothers. And so one of the suggestions was to get a notebook out and like, we would each write down everything that we take care of, in a day’s time for a week. And I’m just going to tell you, Lindsey, that my list in my husband’s a good man, but my list was like, probably, I don’t know, 350 things in seven days. And his list was like, 25. Right? But guess what, I didn’t get paid for doing all that shit. Lindsay, right. And imagine how much it would cost if you paid somebody else to do those things. Exactly. So women that are listening, get over the fact that you are not allowed to enjoy money simply because maybe your partner makes more than you. That’s our message there. And I love
Kim Strobel 38:40
Okay, let’s talk about money and happiness. Because, you know, I’m the happiness coach. And, and I, you know, I’m constantly explaining that, and I probably know some of this research. Yeah, but sometimes I feel a little torn, because here’s what I know Lindsey about money. I know, I know that in the traditional happiness formula, that money doesn’t contribute to more than 10% of your long term happiness, right. So like, if I live in a half million dollar home, or $100,000 home, it’s not going to change my happiness level very much. If I drive an Audi or I drive a paid for Toyota Highlander, that’s 10 years old, it’s not going to change my long term happiness. And that’s one of the things that we talk a lot is don’t tie your happiness to things. Yeah, but Lindsey also as someone who is about wealth building, I also know that my ability to generate money has bought me freedom. It’s brought me flexibility, it’s brought amazing opportunities and experiences for my family. And those kinds of things we do know do have an effect on well being and happiness and so sometimes I feel a little conflicted about what I’m teaching. People and I try to do a really good job of explaining the difference. But I would love for you to talk on that topic as well as give us the research around money.
Absolutely. So you are not alone in feeling conflicted. So let’s let’s break down a couple of the more popular things. So this whole idea that money doesn’t buy happiness is actually somewhat false. So if you think about when you were struggling financially, or if you are listening and you are struggling financially, it of course makes sense that your anxiety is going to be higher that your sleep is going to be impacted that you’re just going to be more stressed out, there’s no disputing that struggling financially is impactful on your mental health. So a study came out about 10 years ago that said, once people hit and this was in the US 75 pay in income annually, any additional money they earn after that no longer increases their happiness. So between earning zero dollars and $75,000, for every additional thousand dollars you were earning your money was or your happiness was also incrementally going up. So there was a correlation, the more you earn, the more happiness keeps ticking up, keep sticking up until you hit that 75 K. So now adjusted with inflation, that’s around 82 K a year. So so let’s just say 82 K a year. And you once you hit that 82 K, you can keep earning more money, but you won’t get happier. Now, that’s a nice, simplistic way to look at it. And I would say in general, that there are many other studies that back that up that once you have your basic needs met, and have the ability to have a bit of a cushion, your stress levels can go down, aka your happiness can go up. But for my people out there who are really in love with certain things, there is actually research that shows that spending money on those things can make you happier, because the other study that we hear all the time, is that spending money on experiences is a better return on your investment than spending money on things. And that is true in most cases, but there is an asterisk for people who have certain things that they really love. So let’s say you are a person who really, really loves, I’m not a shoe person, but like let’s say you love Manolo blahniks. And you follow their Instagram account and you crave their shoes, and you watch every season to see which ones come out. And you know which ones came in which fabric and what color they were in and how high the heel was. And you just love everything about it. And you dream about the day when you can get that box and open it up. And you know, fold the tissue paper paper back and slide your foot into one of those pairs of Manolo blahniks. If you are that person and you buy that pair of malolos, actually, your happiness will increase because that specific thing was very important to you. That does not cut across when you’re like, Oh, I’m just at home goods and I threw 12 more candles in you know, mic shopping cart. Unless you’re like a candle counter store and those specific brand of candles were exactly what you want. And so those are a few things I think are important to learn about money and happiness is that you might be a person going, I actually hate travel. I met somebody, you know, pre COVID is it so weird? But last summer’s? You know, a pretty normal question that I asked people in a meet them is like, Oh, do you have any trips planned? What are you doing? And they said to me, Well, I hate traveling. And I was like, totally taken aback, right? Because that’s my happy place. I love to travel. And I was reflecting on that. I’m like,
Oh my gosh,
how could they not like to travel that’s so small minded. I was being super judgmental. And then I remembered this study. And it was like, Oh, they don’t have to like travel, they probably like other things. And they enjoy spending their money probably in ways that doesn’t involve going to travel. And so that was just a reminder to me that this is very real, like, you don’t have to like spending money on experiences. It’s like going to take an Italian cooking class is just going to make you bonkers, crazy, you know, instead spend on on that beautiful takeout meal where you don’t have to cook.
Kim Strobel 44:11
Yeah, like the moral of this story once again, is we know that there are certain statistics and research studies that in general fit for this research. But again, it’s not a fit for every single person. Yes, most people but like you will never convince me. So I’m looking at that. 75,000 and I’m like, I get it right. Like I remember the days when I made 16,000 a year, Lindsey I remember when I made $8 an hour I remember when I couldn’t sleep at night because we had credit card bills out the wazoo and we lived paycheck to paycheck and so then as I started applying some of the mindset work and law of attraction and also backing that up with my action and desires and starting my own business. I started to see my wealth build and you will know Ever convinced me, Lindsay, that wealth allows me to get a massage every single Friday, it allows my husband and I and our children, you know, to take multiple trips every year where we create these amazing memories. It allows me to support a former fourth grade student who doesn’t have any parents who is now in college. It allows me to support rescue dogs in need of help, because that’s a passion of mine. So like, when I’m talking about the way that I have used the money beyond 75,000, I definitely feel like my well being is being better served.
Right, right, exactly. So you can buck that specific trend, or that saying that gets thrown around again and again. And I so agree that you know, our we can do so much good with our money. And what I love Kim, too, is that you also included some spending money on yourself, that first thing you listed was taking trips with your family, right? That is also so beautiful that you were like living within you know what you’re talking about, which is joy. And yes, Joy is making sure that George is okay after surgeries. But thank God, I
Kim Strobel 46:12
have the money for that. Do you know how much joy he breeds?
Right, right. Exactly. No, I’m I’m a dog lover as well. So I heard this without you. And all that was happening?
Kim Strobel 46:25
Yes, yes. And you know, sometimes I even find myself Lindsay, like when I’m going to do a post, like we have some posts scheduled here soon, because I’m launching my program and like one of my posts is like, I used to make $8 an hour. Now I make $8,000 an hour, like when I have a speaking gig like, and I get nervous to say that because there are some people who are like, Oh, she’s all about money. She thinks she’s better because she it’s not. It’s not that it’s that what I’ve been able to create with my family, using the tools of working on myself, that have allowed us to kind of break through some of these money barriers that we were living with. And but I know I have minds, because I’ll get like super nervous to make that post in my facebook group, right? Mm hmm. Because there’s still this, this shame story around like, don’t we money is taboo. And if you’re a woman who’s talking about money, or sex or any of these taboo words, then you’re not a good person. And so I always have to, like push myself to be uncomfortable, because I know like, that’s the only way I can create comfortableness later on is if I just keep doing it enough to make it the new normal that lives within me.
Yes, exactly. in research, our friend, our buddy research also says that people are more comfortable talking about sex, politics and religion than they are about money.
This is like quite literally like one of the last taboos.
Kim Strobel 47:57
Wow. Oh, I tell you. Well, I feel like we could talk for so many sessions. I
know, I know.
Kim Strobel 48:04
What I want to know from you like, also the people who are like kind of intrigued. Lindsay, can you just give us like a short example of like, what kind of couple? or What kind of person is going to work with you? Yeah, that’s
a good question. It changes. But I would say in general, the couples who come to me are couples who are financially doing okay. And yet, they’re still stressed out about money. So they just have this elephant in the room. I’m like, I’ve worked with a pair, who had been married for over 15 years, and had never seen the other person’s bank account. Like they managed to make it work. But they, they didn’t know how much the other person earned. So this is how deep it is. You can have a happy, healthy marriage. And this is another level of intimacy that I think it’s so important in relationships. So making sure you know how to talk about money. And to me, it’s one of the best ways to develop intimacy to say, where do we want to be in five years? What do you want to do when we retire? What do you want to do this year? And thinking about how money can afford you those specific things, individuals, it really ranges the gamut. But I would say the type of person who’s most likely to come to me is the over consumer, in that they consume all of the money, podcasts, they read all the money books, they try to DIY it, and they are still like, Lindsey, why hasn’t anything changed? I’ve done all the things and I’m like, Well, you’ve done all the financial literacy things, but now we have to talk about the emotional side of it. So those tend to be the types of people who come to me and really what we’re working on is cultivating a financial plan that works for them. But we’re mostly focusing on you know, what is their money archetype? What were their money stories they learned growing up, how can we, you know, kind of play around with with some of these levers and dial down that anxiety and dial up the confidence so that they They can feel really imbalanced with their money. And so is
Kim Strobel 50:03
it a fair statement to say that when people finish working with you, they so I’m all about being in alignment and carrying a high vibration around money? Is it? Is it a result of working with you is learning how to attract more money into your life?
Not always, it’s mostly it can be for some people, but for most of them, it’s getting comfortable seeing that what already is coming in, we can make work for them, right?
Kim Strobel 50:35
Without the layers of stress and anxiety. Exactly. Okay, I have to I pour Scott Strobel I’m a huge extrovert. You know this about me, Lindsay, my husband, like he could care less if he ever makes an appearance, appearance on social media. And he would die if he listened to these episodes where we talk about him. But I mean, you know, that’s the way I share is with understanding these are real life things. So one of the things early in our relationship
that drove me crazy, is he would literally be like that a new pair of underwear. You know, is that did you get a new shirt? Like he would just have to freakin acknowledge it, so that maybe I would feel bad about it and quit spending, right. Like, that’s my, what I think about it. So I really had to work on not taking the bait from him and my husband, so he would be like your Doomsday archetype? For sure. And and then I’m the free spirited, which sometimes makes me nervous, because I feel like we’re both bringing money to the relationship. And so sometimes I’m like, dammit, Scott, like I’m having to work extra hard, because you have this money mindset thing going on too. And like, I need you over here, you know, like making an abundance and not being scared to spend money. And he’s going, Kim, you know, I just can’t handle all the Amazon boxes that I keep seeing and like, you make me nervous, you know, and so I understand my participation in that as well. But I have worked over the years to not take the bait from him. even tell him Do not ask me. Do not ask me if that’s a new shirt. Do not ask me if that’s a new pair of underwear. So I have to laugh because, yes. Saturday, I ordered from Amazon. Like I am so tired of cell phone chargers. Just my son, our son comes home. And those things just disappear. And then I don’t have my main charger in the kitchen. And that just steals my choice. I’m like, going on Amazon. I found like four chargers for like 12 bucks. Okay, yep. Or I’m just like, screw it. We’re gonna have like multitudes of these. I’m gonna have them in every freakin room until it comes and I’m opening it up on the bar. And he’s looking at me. And he’s wanting me. He’s like, what is that? So here we go. Right? What is that I’m like, chargers, he’s like, more chargers. And I just gave him this look like stop right there. I am not going to justify this expense to you. I want to say, Oh, honey, it was only 12 bucks. So he feels better about it. It doesn’t assume it was 30. But I’m not because I’ve learned not to engage. And then he caught himself. And he backed off and caught himself because we have learned, you know, over the years how to do this dance, and we’re still learning. But my point of that story is like, we all have new skills that we have to continue to work on when it comes to our relationship with money. And I love yes, we do that. And I love that you’re a female and that you do it. And that you’re a biracial female on top of it. Yeah. Thank you. So where can people find more from you, Lindsey?
Yeah, my business is called mind money balance. So you can find me over on Instagram
at that handle. My podcast is of the same name. My website is of the same name. And if you’re struggling to figure out which financial archetype you are, I have a quiz for you. You can go to let
Kim Strobel 53:57
Mises tell him Hey, I
know. I know. So I it’s been something Kim, I’ve been talking about doing forever. And I was recently on a podcast and I just said, Oh, I have this quiz. Mind you at that point in time, I did not have the quiz. But I knew I had to say it out loud to get it done. And I got it done the next day. I mean, it had been on my to do list for months. Yeah. So anyway, that’s just a little bit about how I work. I put things out there and I build them. And we all work. So if you go to mind money balanced.com slash quiz. It’s I think it’s 10 or 12 questions, it’s really quick, and then you will be able to figure out what your financial archetype is. Okay, Lindsey,
Kim Strobel 54:39
are you in my free Facebook group by chance? I am not. Oh my gosh, let’s call she finds joy. Okay. And I’m going to post this quiz in there because my people love quizzes and we will also put it in the show notes for every day. Yeah. And
when you take it, take a screenshot of it and tag me on Instagram so I can see what you’re typing. That’s always so fun for me to see. Like, I’m always curious. And so far there hasn’t been a pattern. I thought like, I’d have a lot of people kind of falling into that blissfully ignorant. But so far, it’s been all over the place. So it’s been really fun to see.
Kim Strobel 55:13
Yeah, I probably gonna go take it today because I get super fired up about this, Lindsay, it’s been such an honor, I just really appreciate your your ability to go there with us today. It’s it’s kind of freeing Actually, I just, it feels good when we can put a voice to this and not feel like it’s taboo or shameful to talk about. And I think you did a really good job of helping us understand who and where we might fall in those archetypes and how they have served us, but also maybe perhaps why we might want to work on ourselves a little bit.
Right, right, exactly. Well, I love talking about this stuff. So thank you so much for having me on today. And this was such a wonderful conversation. You’re welcome. And if you’re listening,
Kim Strobel 55:57
one of the things that really helps us folks is if you go to iTunes, or wherever you’re listening to this podcast, write a review, tell us what you’re thinking about Lindsey and her mind money balance, give us your thoughts. We love that that helps us get to our viewers and reach more people. And I’m all about educating more women when it comes to understanding money, building wealth, finding our joy, creating happiness, all of those things. So make sure you screenshot this, send it to your friends, let them know about the podcast. And we would be so happy if you would write us a review. Thank you all